I really wasnt to sure on where this should go.

THis game seems to be designed around the Imperial Gaurd and Eldar, which is cool, but it also makes it difficult to add space marines. When it came to points and squad size I think the rules should have been disigned around a Space Marine squad of 5 to ten men with one heavy and a special weapon. Then the points for all of the other races would have fell into place a little easier. I do like the concept, small squads of 40k. Adding space marines at this point is going to be difficult without making it two to four man squads if you are lucky.

You are in luck! As the Space Marines are currently in development. Keep an eye out for them come TLRB 4.0

This is as good as any place to to ask!

Like Dozer said... you are in luck. Remember that is still in development. We are working on tightening the core rules (this will be done on TLRB v0.4.0) and then we will be adding more Squads. Many of them are currently on development.

You bring a good point... why is that the game was developed using the Imperial Guard as base and not the Space Marines. It was a matter of scale, design and luck. Every previous attempt to make a 40k based skirmish either avoided dealing with the Astartes, or failed on the attempt. Remember, that SM excel in being the equivalent of 100's of normal guys. In 40k a SM is equivalent to 3 Ork Boyz... so for us to have the same balance, it would leave players with a 6-man Squad. That will be no fun at all!

Instead we are taking non-conventional approaches on the design. Little things that will make the beloved Space Marines stand out without giving them ubber stats. Having 4's across all stats is no big deal in 40k as the units do not change, evolve or progress. For Death Squads it is a problem... units do gain XP and improve relatively quickly. We want them to be fair on long term campaigns for everyone. On the pipeline for development (on the Astartes side) will be the Space Marine Space Scout Squad (SMSS). While centered on Scouts, they will be very little like the '2nd thought' units in 40k. In a skirmish scale, they will shine like the true heroes they are. We have gone deep into the fluff and play with the 'gaps'. The end will be a true visionary Squad that will make players act intelligently (read use of tactics, terrain, equipment, skills rather than just brute stats) and in which you could end up with several Space Marines (which you get to see them grow from Scouts to Battle Brothers!).

This design also will help us tackle many Space Marine 'issues' like power armor. We do not want a Save 3+ thing... ours will be fully customizable and functional (different armors and/or helmets will do different things). Custom bolter ammunition will make an appearance, as well as custom items. Also, the SMSS will bring an unique set of rules that will challenge players in MANY different levels. The SMSS is setting precedence for the Chaos Cultits (CC) Squad... a Chaos Space Marine leading a chaos-loving fighting force. These are almost done, too! Very cool... Chaos lovers rejoice!!! Later we will see a "full" Space Marine Squad, in the form of Death Watch and elite 'behind enemy lines' Squads (like the famous Blood Angels.) Trust me... it is not as easy as just slapping 10 SM from the Codex. Our units grown on power and they need to be balanced in many aspects.

So... do not worry! We passed the stage of "panic" and we figured out the bulk on how to be able to add the Astartes to our roster. We are dedicated to their addition(it would not be 40k without them!) but we need to do them justice. Before their release, we may request for test volunteers. Organize your group and run a campaign. Use the current rules and Squads, so you learn the ropes. Your Forum participation (post your groups adventures and findings on the Campaign section!) will be critical in joining our Beta Testing.

Read the rules and start preparing! The Astartes will make planet fall soon...

*raises hand* Beta testing? Adeptus? puh puh puh pleeeeeeeeease?

In all seriousness though, I would love to partake in the beta testing. Just tell me when, and how I can help.

Well, just like we mentioned for Kroot, we are ALWAYS looking for volunteers to stress test any Experimental Squad. The requirements to become a Beta Tester are:

• Belong to a stable group (2 or more players) that is currently (or willing to re-start) playing Death Squads.
  
• Have a solid understanding of Death Squads' rules (TLRB v0.4.4) This can be achieved by playing 4-5 games... and asking questions in the forums! Changing the rules to fit what you think is proper without asking is not wanted. You may do that in your own games... but we need you to test the Official Rules. We spend hundreds of hours balancing things in ways that you may not be aware... we do WANT your feedback on rules, but don't go changing stuff thinking you know better. Ask first; chances are we already tried your idea and we can tell you why it does not works. If we have not tried it, we will all test your idea!
  
• Have posted on the Campaign section at least one battle report of your Death Squads games. The more reports, the better. Comments regarding game mechanics and your experience a PLUS! The posting is the evidence we seek to know you understand the game.
  
• Be able to understand that this is a preliminary test, and many things may not work or will be changed.
  
• Willing to take conventional and non-conventional approaches to game-play... we want you to BREAK them, so we can FIX them! Please note that that by the word WE, we actually mean the Development Team. If you go and change the rules without consulting, you are wasting everyone's time.
  
• Willing to give massive amounts of input on the topic. Post, post, post! One lines do not cut it either. You must be willing to do that, so we learn from your experience and opinions.
  
• Willing to receive massive amounts of input on the topic. Yes, that means receiving 5-10 email a day from 4-5 people at the busiest times! We are trying to do everything in the forum, so you would have to check (and post) often!

If you are STILL interested... go ahead and organize your group and learn the new rules (v0.4.4). Start posting on the Campaign section, comment on the rules (what you like and don't like), what would you like to add or remove, battle reports, etc. Become an active member! If you have enthusiasm, we want to hear about your group!

Exactly what Mordheimer has pointed out is what we need.

Hi Mordheimer,

I was just reading your bit about the space marine dying (rather than being OOA) - you've probably already thought about this, but could you use a version of the feel no pain rule from 40k to allow the marine to survive all but the most horrific injuries, by giving him an extra 'save' against long term death.

Another thought - would the marine already have a full compliment of weaponry and armour? to bring initial costs down and allow the player to build his marine over time (like the IG officers) it might be that you can buy this wargear as you go (making it more competitive early on - but with the opportunity to be very hard later - a bit like mordheim dwarves). Also will the chaos cultists include a cheap 'meatshield' unit to allow the player to stock up on cheap numbers and decrease the chance of routing?

Just a few ideas
Cheers
Laney


EDIT: Moved post to correct thread.

Well, well, well... you people are mind readers! We have something in place regarding determining injuries. Basically its harder to take a SM OOA... also, we were toying with the giving the SM a re-roll of one dice on the Serious Injury Chart (just like the Medical Assistant Skill)... so it is harder to kill him. In theory, you can still kill a SM (bad re-roll!)... the problem is that so far, in practice, those stupid Chaos Space Marines have yet to receive a single Wound!

On starting gear... that is part of the Conundrum. Our initial reaction was to have 'naked' SM as you suggested. While this is OK for game mechanics, it date-rapes the fluff. SM must start with Armor. We thought about 'upgradable' Power Armor... but so far the 'basic' non-upgradable Armor is a Save 4+... you could buy its Helmet, it is a 3+ Save (+bonuses to Knocked Down) and infra-red vision.

The SM starts with T4 and 2 Wounds... now add a Save of 3+ AND reduced Injuries... AND then a chance to change the Serious Injury result post-game. That why a bunch of SM would be hard to balance.

The Chaos Cultists... they are a great Squad. WHAT?!?! I mean... horribly stupid unfair smelly bunch. Yeah, that's it! [looks around for the =I= ] Their Leader is a Chaos Space Marine, followed by to Aspiring Champions (who may try to take the Leader's place... by killing him!) and to Chosen. They all can have individual Marks of Chaos (like they did on the previous Codex) which gives them some characteristics that determine game play. Right now Dozer is testing a 100% Nurgle Squad (he is kicking my Catachan ass!) and jd3 testing Tzeench (with few Chaos Undivided Officers). The CC's Officers are a tough bunch... the CSM leads them (he is BAD!) and the rest follow closely.

The 'tactical Aquile's Heel' are their Recruit class. More meatshield than men; they do take that routing number down, but are 'easy pickings' for the enemy. This was not intentionally designed, but figured out during play-testing. The CC player would tend to send Recruits in front (like everyone else), but the Officers will be close behind... jumping into action very early on the game.

Good ideas... keep 'em coming!

SM are small tanks. But where are tanks there's also a anti tank weapon.
Also we have to remember- at sqad of probably 6-7 marines you need only 2 of them to rolling on route tests.
And, what is just obvious with less models you probably painfully feel the lack of flexibility. Try for examlple surround... anything that moves. It could work with buildings, but such fight against for example IG sqad of 14 with sniper could be rather ballanced .
That could be a terrible army for missions where you need to spread your team.
I think nice idea will be join SM sqad and SM scouts sqad. Army with SM commander, 2 SM counted as heavy or special and f.e. 4-5 maby 6 scouts with various weapons will gain some flexibility without (i think) overpowering.
It also will be fluffy solution for gaining scouts promotions on SM by just giving them armor...

Drizzt....excellent points. The SMS should be a small group for those reasons noted. In theory, a full SM can take on about 50-100 IG troops at one time and would kill most before he would be taken out my Caiphas Cain. LOL.

Some fluffy (ish) points for the space marines that might add something...

The Rynns World book (which is great by the way) gave me a few ideas...

The crimson fists (A fairly typical chapter before the disaster) make wide scale use of chapter serfs and servitors for either non-combatant or less important combat roles - e.g. anti-aircraft batteries, guarding the gates etc.

They also fought alongside the PDF (Rynnsguard) albeit in extreme circumstances.

Their power armour is quite noisy (there is a bit that suggests the armour is too noisy for stealthy work - which fits with scouts using carapace armour (but not with Kayvaan Shrike - who is all about quiet fast attacks - oh the inconsistencies of 40k!). Any link to a disadvantage/balancing point here?

Just one other thing - would a specialist squad just be a typical bolter armed tactical type squad - lots of the books suggest the use of mixed squads with different weapon load outs e.g. bolt pistol, chainsword, flamer etc, even a lightning clawed sergeant in a tactical squad (Soul Drinkers novels), use of apothecaries/specialists with small squads - any mileage there? Would they all count as officers for progression or could you make them a progression of the scout squad when they get their black carapace?

Sorry - just a splurge of ideas that popped in my head - do with it what you will!

Cheers
Laney

Good ideas! While the Space Marine Chapter Squad (SMCS) concept is just that... a concept, all ideas are converging to the same spots. We are VERY inclined to the 40k 'Combat Squad' size of 5 Space Marines, but do to the highly individualize nature of Death Squads, will allow players to mix and match 40k units. For example, you may have a 'Tactical' Marine with Bolter, another one with a Flamer, and another one with a Heavy Bolter.

We may shy away from Apothecaries, as they are precious resources... but may bring/create Apothecary Servitors as well as Servo-Skulls as additional 'support 'crew'. Do not put high hopes on Terminator Armor or Terminator weapons, like Lightning Claws, Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers.

At this point, we have resolved many aspects of fluff and incorporating it at such small scale. Now we are working on the math, and sneak the changes on the upcoming TLRB v0.5.0. This way, when the Space Marines arrive, we don't have to change all the Core Rules. HA!

Cool - sounds like it's gonna fit really well - I like the servitors especially - fits nicely with the current SM codex.

I honestly didn't expect lightning claws - just a little bit cheesy! As for terminator armour, so cheesy it might make me

Laney

More support units: how about all those creepy robed cyborg guys that shine power armor and carry big swords?

They are not lobotomized like servitors, just enhanced for one specific duty.

I think a 3 man recon team in terminator armor (yes in space hulk they used to send the most elite as recon, not scouts...) would be challenging to play as. But i don't want to see it as an official squad, maybe an unofficial one.

The thing about small number of MODELS is that you loose one, and you are in routing. We we have LOTS of little issues to work with... calculation indicate that 5 SM is PLENTY of power, with maybe 2 support units. There will be plenty of choices, but players could never have them all... for example, there could be 3 types of Recruits (support units) but only 2 slots. Decisions... what to take?

What we want to do is create a SMCS that is flexible, so people can customize their own Squad to fit their game style. No easy task... but we are confident we will get there... some day!