Editing Suggestion for 0.4.4, and Rules Questions/Comments

Posts: 28 Join date: 2010-02-20

I assume that most of these editing suggestions have already been covered, but I'm tired and reading all the previous editing posts sounds like torture to me right now!

I made a few notes as i was reading through the rules earlier this week, here they are:

Page 10: Ballistic skill: ..."shoot a bow or fire a pistol..." Replace with: "...fire a gun, or throw a grenade..."

Page several: To hit modifier table needed in shooting. It took me forever to find where the -1to hit for moving was in the description of walk, even though i saw several references for it in equipment, and assumed it was the case due to the game being heavily based on Mordheim.

Page 15: Must a model be in the same building, not just the same elevation level to be a direct threat.

Page 15; flight: "control" to "controlled"

16: who can hide? no description of needing to be in cover.

Page 17:flight: can you move to any elevation level in 8" or do you measure at an angle when moving up or down?

Page 18: flight charge, 2nd paragraph. Last sentence just ends abruptly.

Page 19: types of terrain, should space hulk be pluralized?

Page 23: jumping down: no maximum distance to jump or diving charge like Mordheim?

Page 30: Flamer templates, 4th paragraph: Missing first word, "instead"

Page 33: grenades: point of failure is not explained very well

Page 40: assault behind cover: +1 ws defender will rarely have an effect on the game, usually only if the defender is exactly one point lower than attacker...

two weapons, last paragraph: "..., and the..." to "... and then..."

Mordheim didn't allow one model to down and then out another in the same round, why the change?

Page 42: taking cover, 3rd paragraph: Not really sure what this paragraph means...

Page 53: hiding, rules state spotting models is on an individual basis, so can it be possible to hide from some and not others or is the counter removed as the model says" he's over here!"

Page 46: 1st sentence "... maybe.." to "...may be..."

Page 54: Are rejected bionics destroyed? re-used later?

Page 93: explosives expert: "do" to "due"

Page 131 & 139: Sniper + Camileoline. Lets say my model has a sniper rifle and camileoline and is hiding. It shoots, roll a d6 and score a 1 so looses hiding. Does camileoline make the model hidden again immediately?

Wow! Thanks. It is because input like yours that TLRB is so 'tight'. Dozens of critical eyes spot issues and let us know. That is why when people say, "you guys did a great job on the manual" I always reply, "not me... ALL of us! You can help too!" Smile

Page 10: Ballistic skill...
Fixed. Now reads: "When you fire a gun, throw a grenade or shoot a bow the chance of hitting a target"

"It took me forever to find where the -1 to hit for moving was in the description of walk, even though i saw several references for it in equipment, and assumed it was the case due to the game being heavily based on Mordheim." Don't know what to say... Walk has one paragraph, composed of 5 short sentences. Sorry it sneaked on you.

Quote:

The normal Movement value of fighters represents a fighter moving carefully at a fairly rapid rate, but allows time for him to aim and shoot a weapon and generally observe what is going on around him. This is commonly referred as Walking. Fighters that move can fire certain weapons (item specific allotment) at a penalty -1 BS. This is the default Type of Movement for any fighter. Pistols may only be fired once when the fighter has Walked.

Page 15: Must a model be in the same building, not just the same elevation level to be a direct threat.
Why? It your fighter is on a building (ground floor) and can be seen by an enemy from the building across the street (ground level, 4" away)... well, he can shoot your ass down. He IS a direct threat! If we make conditions regarding specific terrain, then issues would arise (does ruins count, what about Area Terrain, etc) This is a games mechanics issue over reality.

Page 15; flight: "control" to "controlled"
Fixed!

16: who can hide? no description of needing to be in cover.
Nice spot! It was implied... but MY bad. We are going for a Zero-FAQ. The section now reads:
"A fighter that is behind a structure that can provide a Cover Save can declare himself Hidden, if he did not Ran or Flew to the position. This Hidden fighter cannot.."

Page 17:flight: can you move to any elevation level in 8" or do you measure at an angle when moving up or down?

Quote:

A fighter that can Fly can move double their movement rate (for example, a fighter that Walks 4” can Fly 8") in straight line in any direction.

As written, in straight line from point A (i.e. on the ground) to point B (i.e. on the 3rd floor balcony.) This is the power of flight... mathematically is faster movement than moving on ground to building, then up the building and has no risk of falling! Smile

Page 18: flight charge, 2nd paragraph. Last sentence just ends abruptly.
Previously fixed. Wink

Page 19: types of terrain, should space hulk be pluralized?
Done!

Page 23: jumping down: no maximum distance to jump or diving charge like Mordheim?
Nope, no maximum. Dude, if you WANT to jump from 12" height... be my guess! If you fail any ONE test, you are SPLAT! That means that in that desperate attempt, you have to pass SIX Initiative tests... if you fail one, just ONE of the tests, then you take D3 Strength 12 hits. It IS a great way to die!

Page 30: Flamer templates, 4th paragraph: Missing first word, "instead"
Fixed. Embarassed

I'm such a dork!

Page 33: grenades: point of failure is not explained very well
I will make a note of it... on my to-do list. THANKS!

Page 40: assault behind cover: +1 ws defender will rarely have an effect on the game, usually only if the defender is exactly one point lower than attacker...
It may or may not... it has made a difference when the defender gets his attacks back! It is not designed to 'end the defender's troubles', but to make things more challenging. Now, the Death Korps get a +2 WS when entrenched... they are the Masters of 'this is my fox-hole and you are NOT getting me out alive!"

two weapons, last paragraph: "..., and the..." to "... and then..."
This is confusing. Can you be more specific please? Where is it.

Mordheim didn't allow one model to down and then out another in the same round, why the change?
What do you mean by "didn't allow one model to down and then out another in the same round"? By the way... you can shot in close combat. This is not Mordheim-in-Space... combat is more brutal.

Page 42: taking cover, 3rd paragraph: Not really sure what this paragraph means...

Quote:

Fighters at different elevations gain Cover from structures that are within 1” of them. The game mechanics regarding benefits of Cover Saves are discussed in the Saves section below.

Basically that if your fighter on a 2nd level is within 1" of a structure that provides Cover, he does not need to be in base to base with the structure. This is the same way on the ground floor. Now imagine that I have a fighter on the 5th floor of an adjacent building, that is 4" away (linear), and have LoS to your fighter. Realistically, in terms of real world mathematics, I could prove you that I can shot you over that barrel you were hiding behind... OHHH!!!!! Does it make people argue! So, it was decided (in yet another case of fun vs game mechanics vs realistic physics) that the model that is behind Cover against a shooter on the same level, would be in Cover vs another fighter that just happens to be higher in elevation.

Page 53: hiding, rules state spotting models is on an individual basis, so can it be possible to hide from some and not others or is the counter removed as the model says" he's over here!"
"Over here where?!?!" By then we are on the next Turn. Again, realism vs game mechanics. We chose game mechanics because is simple... there would be many cases that people would argue "but such model could not see him" and what not. This is why we specifically defined Spotting vs Revealing.

Page 46: 1st sentence "... maybe.." to "...may be..."
A little more specific please. My copy of TLRB has suffered so many changes that the pages do not match... hehehehe...

Page 54: Are rejected bionics destroyed? re-used later?
Good observation. The rule now reads:
"Another try to repair the damage maybe attempted after a new Bionic Replacement has been purchased. The previous Bionic Replacement is discarded as damaged goods, so it cannot be re-used on another patient."

Page 93: explosives expert: "do" to "due"
Fixed!

Page 131 & 139: Sniper + Camileoline. Lets say my model has a sniper rifle and camileoline and is hiding. It shoots, roll a d6 and score a 1 so looses hiding. Does camileoline make the model hidden again immediately?
Tired... will tackle this one later. Better yet... why don't you post the question on the Official Game Rules section? That way others can shine some light on the subject.

THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR HELP!!!

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Posts: 28 Join date: 2010-02-20

Mordheimer wrote:

Don't know what to say... Walk has one paragraph, composed of 5 short sentences. Sorry it sneaked on you.

Oh it's not that i couldn't find it eventually, it's that the intuitive place one looks for everything shooting related is the shooting section. Perhaps there should be a list of modifiers in the shooting section, although it would be a short table with that being the only one!

Mordheimer wrote:

Nice spot! It was implied... but MY bad. We are going for a Zero-FAQ. The section now reads:
"A fighter that is behind a structure that can provide a Cover Save can declare himself Hidden, if he did not Ran or Flew to the position. This Hidden fighter cannot.."

You're shifting tense here, ran and flew should be run and fly.

Mordheimer wrote:

Page 23: jumping down: no maximum distance to jump or diving charge like Mordheim?
Nope, no maximum. Dude, if you WANT to jump from 12" height... be my guess! If you fail any ONE test, you are SPLAT! That means that in that desperate attempt, you have to pass SIX Initiative tests... if you fail one, just ONE of the tests, then you take D3 Strength 12 hits. It IS a great way to die!

This i like! No artificial restriction on jumping down, just the consequences... Might i suggest, models that jump from heights of over 12" take D6 hits rather than D3?

Mordheimer wrote:

It is not designed to 'end the defender's troubles', but to make things more challenging. Now, the Death Korps get a +2 WS when entrenched... they are the Masters of 'this is my fox-hole and you are NOT getting me out alive!"

I see the tactical advantage, if the enemy is marginally better in assault, use some cover, but otherwise one is better off charging!

Mordheimer wrote:

two weapons, last paragraph: "..., and the..." to "... and then..."
This is confusing. Can you be more specific please? Where is it.

I though i had referenced all the pages, my bad. On page 41, the paragraph after the example of fighting with 2 weapons. "..., and the..." to "... and then..."

Mordheimer wrote:

What do you mean by "didn't allow one model to down and then out another in the same round"? By the way... you can shot in close combat. This is not Mordheim-in-Space... combat is more brutal.

I understand it is not Mordheim-in-space, but I see a great deal of the players were recruited from the Mordheim crowd, so forgive us for having some preconceptions! Just Kidding

I wanted to be sure this was a deliberate departure from Mordheim rules and not simply an oversight. For reference i'll quote the Mordheim rules, page 21:

"Note that a model with multiple attacks may not stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand combat phase. The only way you can achieve this is to have more than one of your models attacking the same enemy."

Just Nit picking, you want 100% FAQ free right? Wink

Mordheimer wrote:

"Over here where?!?!" By then we are on the next Turn. Again, realism vs game mechanics.

I think both game mechanics and realism win out this time. It's unrealistic for every enemy to immediately know when one spots a hidden enemy. By the way, the example right after this section (page 43 not 53 like i typed) answered the question, i just tend to skip examples while reading...

Mordheimer wrote:

pathfinder dubstyles wrote:

Page 46: ~~1st~~ 2nd sentence "... maybe.." to "...may be..."

A little more specific please. My copy of TLRB has suffered so many changes that the pages do not match... hehehehe...

7th paragraph in the Injuries section, after the "Down fighters and true line of sight" gray box. 2nd sentence.

Mordheimer wrote:

"Another try to repair the damage ~~maybe~~ may be attempted after a new Bionic Replacement has been purchased. The previous Bionic Replacement is discarded as damaged goods, so it cannot be re-used on another patient."

Posts: 28 Join date: 2010-02-20

++double post++

++end transmission++

pathfinder dubstyles wrote:

Oh it's not that i couldn't find it eventually, it's that the intuitive place one looks for everything shooting related is the shooting section. Perhaps there should be a list of modifiers in the shooting section, although it would be a short table with that being the only one!

Ohhhh... OK. Good idea. Will reproduce it on the Shooting section. O added "the line" om the Shooting section below the to-hit table... where it mention there was a modifier but not which one. DUH! confused

pathfinder dubstyles wrote:

You're shifting tense here, ran and flew should be run and fly.

Stupid English!!! Heheheh... fixed. Thanks for not letting TLRB sound like it was written by Tarzan.

pathfinder dubstyles wrote:

This i like! No artificial restriction on jumping down, just the consequences... Might i suggest, models that jump from heights of over 12" take D6 hits rather than D3?

Hmmmm Good idea. I will bring your suggestion. Makes perfect sense. I would suggest a step further... damage is D3 (+1 per 2" above 8") hits Strength Height. This would make it exponentially worse, without being super abusive. Basically if you jump from 8", you need to pass 4 Initiative tests or get D3 Hits S8; you jump from 9", you need to pass 4 Initiative tests or get D3+1 Hits S9; you jump from 12", you need to pass 6 Initiative tests or get D3+2 Hits S12. What do you think?

pathfinder dubstyles wrote:

I see the tactical advantage, if the enemy is marginally better in assault, use some cover, but otherwise one is better off charging!

Exactly... imagine the poor Cadians receiving a full WAAAGH! assault... they are screwed. BUT if they were behind cover, they pretty much nullify half of the power of the assault.... they will still die. After all, we be Orks!

pathfinder dubstyles wrote:

two weapons, last paragraph: "..., and the..." to "... and then..."
This is confusing. Can you be more specific please? Where is it.

I though i had referenced all the pages, my bad. On page 41, the paragraph after the example of fighting with 2 weapons. "..., and the..." to "... and then..."

You did have the pages... but MY copy of TLRB is off, since I have changed and added stuff (like your suggestions). So I find the 'more or less place' the search for the exact words. When the words are "and the" I have little to help me. Can you please quote the sentence on TLRB that is wrong, and then write it at suggested? It will help a great deal. THANKS!

pathfinder dubstyles wrote:

What do you mean by "didn't allow one model to down and then out another in the same round"? By the way... you can shot in close combat. This is not Mordheim-in-Space... combat is more brutal.

I understand it is not Mordheim-in-space, but I see a great deal of the players were recruited from the Mordheim crowd, so forgive us for having some preconceptions! Just Kidding

I wanted to be sure this was a deliberate departure from Mordheim rules and not simply an oversight. For reference i'll quote the Mordheim rules, page 21:

"Note that a model with multiple attacks may not stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand combat phase. The only way you can achieve this is to have more than one of your models attacking the same enemy."

Just Nit picking, you want 100% FAQ free right? Wink

Not nit-picking! You are a tough customer... and this is why the Ninja Design come and sneaks in its mysterious head. You see, that Mordheim rule makes PERFECT sense in Mordheim. I mean... I favor it 100%. In Death Squads, we moved away from most of the automatics... so there is no instant kill! Check TLRB (Assaulting an Enemy Who is Down, around page 40). For example assaulting a fighter that is Stun hits automatically, you receive a +3 to-wound (chances are you will wound on a 2+), the target receives a -3 to his Armor Save (chances are negates armor) and you receive a +3 to the Injury roll (a 1 will allow the victim to stay Stun, a 2+ is OOA.) Now there is a chance for failure... if you are fighting one one one, and your 1st of 3 attacks put me to sleep (Stun), why not finish the job? Makes no sense. If you are fighting 1 vs 2, then it seems obvious that you must use the other 2 attacks vs your 2nd opponent. If you Knock him Down... are you going to stand pretty with both guys groaning in pain, trying to get up? You finish them quickly. Considering that you CAN shoot into Close Combat (this means that there is an equal chance to HIT your own people, it is fair and balanced... more deadly, but fair.

This little changes are the ones that (IMHO) elevate Death Squads. Assumptions like not finishing a Stunned enemy or not shooting into close combat treat players like idiots. I play Tyranids in 40k... and you are telling me that The Hive Mind will not fire 72 shoots to 5 Terminators that are fighting 1 Gaunt? Isn't THE greatest honor to die for The Emperor? Then why I can fire my Basilisks into those 3 Guardsmen that are still firing that Demon Prince? We can't change 40k... and we should not complaint either. Death Squads... well, we can! Smile

pathfinder dubstyles wrote:

"Over here where?!?!" By then we are on the next Turn. Again, realism vs game mechanics.

I think both game mechanics and realism win out this time. It's unrealistic for every enemy to immediately know when one spots a hidden enemy. By the way, the example right after this section (page 43 not 53 like i typed) answered the question, i just tend to skip examples while reading...

Gald you approve. It is nice to get validation from smart people.

pathfinder dubstyles wrote:

Page 46: ~~1st~~ 2nd sentence "... maybe.." to "...may be..."

A little more specific please. My copy of TLRB has suffered so many changes that the pages do not match... hehehehe...

7th paragraph in the Injuries section, after the "Down fighters and true line of sight" gray box. 2nd sentence.[/quote]
OHHH!!! Fixed! Very Happy

pathfinder dubstyles wrote:

"Another try to repair the damage ~~maybe~~ may be attempted after a new Bionic Replacement has been purchased. The previous Bionic Replacement is discarded as damaged goods, so it cannot be re-used on another patient."

LOL! Fixed. Do you think I have a problem with my grammar? Maybe...

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The Mordheimer - Death Squads' Chief Editor & Ninja Designer.
Support Bacteria; it is the ONLY culture some people have!

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A small misprint in the Ork Trash Kan fluff:

"A Trash-Kan... is a poor man's version of a Trash-Kan."

I'm guessing that's a "Killa Kan".

Opps! Fixed.

_________________
.
The Mordheimer - Death Squads' Chief Editor & Ninja Designer.
Support Bacteria; it is the ONLY culture some people have!

.