Done reworked list. Can you give me the ups and downs with this list now?
Oh do I have a good amount of guys now?

dwi

Seems pretty solid to me... those Officers start well armored, so they will kick major booty... and those mutants are made of 'awesome juice'... and you have an Ogryn!!! Yikes... the bad guys are here!

Good news Mr Matthias "Silent Death" Riel is almost done. All I need is a bolt pistol.
I also made him a cloke, but I wont tell you how! I only tell my tade secrets to my VEREY best friends. Trust me you guys are my friends (some of my only friends) but you arnt there yet You can gusse if you want


dwi

Uhhh... question? Mathias is an Imperial Guard Jenkala's Urban Fighters exclusive Special Character. Are you playing Jenkala or is it your buddy, Mr. Angry? HA! Also... post the picture of the model... so the guessing game begins!

*exasperated sigh* OK, WELL THAT MAKES THIS A PAIN DON'T IT!!!
Well I ain't in a good mood now, after going throgh all this and us frogeting this and all. But you did say that it dose not matter haveing weapons for the ogryn at start so....

As I plan on playing the Jenkalas I won't take a ripper gun to be fair.

dwi

Hit a ANOTHER snag (boy I seem too be gettins those alot don't I?) My Jenkala's are a small force, VERY SMALL!

Captain Ernst Willhelm 60creds
Bolter 27creds, Mesh Armour 17creds, FragG 6creds.=120 creds (not bad for a leader in my book)

Both my Sergeants Stubbs and Hen are 78creds each with a lasgun and mesh armour and FragG each (also not bad)

However my lieutenants are 100 CREDS EACH! Why? Well I have them each with mesh armour and FragG, laspistol and sword. Now I wonder if it would just be best just to strip em down to lasgun MA and FG like Hen and Stubbs, My beef is that laspistols are 20 creds each! WTF! This will leave me with 125 creds or something!

Help!

dwi

Well... first, check TLRB. That's what I do! Th e Ogryn's Ripper Gun is Rare 4, as well as the Kurzickan Armor; and the Kurzickan Helmet is Rare 3. You can start with a decked Ogryn... but that is 65 points that you are sinking on him.

On the Lieutenants... start with autoguns and skip the sword and grenades... up grade later.

Remember that the 'base' pistol is the Slugger (15 credits)... the autopistols are weaker and give bonuses to Armor. Good starting weapons. See? Even when you are allowed to start with Rare 5 items or less... it is hard!

*note* Please do not double-post... just edit your last post. Thanks!

Sorry about that. But why are laspistols 20 creds? I know your doing it for game reasons but still, laspistols are only just better that autopistols and lasguns the same. Read the fluff then do the price. Laspistols 8creds, lasguns 15 creds.
Thats the way I see it anyway

dwi

Game mechanics. Take the Slugger as the base cost. Now, compare it to an autopistol. It has worse stats and its Special Rules have 'negative' effects. The all reduce the price substantially. Now, take the laspistol; better stats & no negative effects (as a matter of fact, you can increase its power with Hot Packs!) Now, rarity ALSO is a contributor to its costs; the real-world economics of supply & demand indicate that the scarcer the item the higher the cost.

NOT true for game mechanics! For game purposes (read... FUN FACTOR) this would be punishing the player twice; not only you have to collect a high amount of money, but you also need 'more luck' to find it. This particular revelation makes items more available in the game. For Death Squads, rarity decreases cost... think of it as paying part of the price in 'luck' rather than 'money'.

For example, pound per pound, a Sniper Rifle (that ALSO requires the fighter to have a particular Skill) would need a rarity roll of 12 and cost 100 credits. Now I ask you... when would your Squad would get a weapon that requires 1 Skill, deprives the Squad of 5 other rare items and costs as much as 4 basic Recruits? We WANT players to use different items and experiment.

You want to start 'well equipped' with laspistols? Great! Do it!!! You will have less models that someone else who has crappy gear. You want the perfect Squad? Play a Campaign... you will get it by game 10. You can NOT appreciate how fun a shotgun until you are 'stuck' with autopistols.

Remember... as you said, we have complicated math. We can revise weapon costs (for the 6th time)... but I would not hold my breath. The wargear, on the other hand is COMPLETELY out of wack. Suggestions won't work too well, because we need to do some base lines to create a calculator. This is scheduled for the release AFTER v0.5.0.

*Sigh* True, but I never said I wanted you to cange it! I just said that it DOSE NOT ift 40k fluff IN MY MIND I say everthing for fluff (and sometimes game) reasons! NEVER for the "I have the best list I can get so I will have the chance at winning" thought. If my lists seem to make you think I am trying to make the "perfect" squad (what the hell is a perfect squad anyway???) you are wrong!
If your not going to make it fluffy, if I have to down grade to autoguns to have a good time (and to stand a chance) I will, no probs I'll just say that they are crappy lasguns, but I can tell you this right now, I'm not going to waste 23ceds for a basic weapon that has a cheaper counter part (shotgun) that can do the same if not a little more that the lasgun for 16creds in a campain. I have always told it like it is and I am sticking to it. If you think this makes me a !@#$%^& then so be it.
I don't care what people think of me anymore, I know thats where my lifes at, sad ain't it?

(EDIT: Anyway now that I got that of my chest, I might rework it tonight, Y'all have fun )

dwi

Ok well lets look at it this way.

Normally an IG PLATOON would be issued the wargear, as such lasguns etc.......

But your not playing a platoon......your playing a squad......who is on its own.....without any refit/repair/quartermaster station.......who can only use what they have direct access too.

Second, whats the difference between a lasgun and autogun......It's only a difference in AP. (Lasgun is AP 6 whereas Autogun is AP-). Now how effective is that really from the start of the game? Chances are your opponent is going to take a cover save before any armor initially, just because covers saves are more abundant, and they offer a better chance of saving the wound.

Lastly, lets look at what else the lasgun offers you. An autogun is just a straight up S3 weapon, that does not offer any other benifits. Whereas the lasguns do. You can purchase hotshot power packs after the first game (and at initial recruitment if you are allowing rare items). That means you will be blasting people at on average a 3+ to-wound, with no armor saves whatsoever.

Now you also argue that the shotgun is the cheaper counterpart to the lasgun....how so? Sure you get two shots at 12", and its an assualt with a cool shuffle rule, but can you upgrade the power of the shot? Can you "reach out and touch someone" at 24"? No you cannot. The two weapons are used for two VERY different things. The shotgun benifits you if your charging forward trying assualt someone, whereas the lasgun benifits you if you are sitting back blasting at targets of opportunity. They are two very different weapons that are used in two very different ways (just like in real life I might add).

Also you say that downgrading to autoguns is not effective. Let me tell you this, my autoguns on my squads have done more damage than any lasguns in any other squad......why you ask? Because I pack a SHIT load of them. Never EVER underestimate the power of workers with cheap autoguns. A worker costs 15, and the autogun costs 13....thats a grand total of 28 credits a model. With the renegades I can almost max out the squad with just workers and officers, and just with the SHEER amount of shots that I would have would mean that I WILL be wounding if not killing someone. Now imagine if I didn't run that squad forward, if I just sat back and let you come into my killbox, imagine what would happen then. Your shotguns would be of no use because I wouldn't let you get close enough to use them.

The weapons are created in a way that forces you to use strategy in how you employ them. It is our 'Ninja Design" behind them.

Don't say BS because the weapon you want does not fit into your strategy, instead use the weapon that does.

DoZer: I just said that I would rather spend 16creds than 23 in a campian. I don't mind takeing one or three las weapons in the start as I have the money for that, but later on? no. In a one off battle I would go with lasguns no word of a lie there. I know how autoguns are IN GAME, I still think it's a downgrade (fluff wise). I might still keep the lasguns on my Sergeants though, they are vital (in my mind) to my plans, with the "Good Ol' Serge" rule I can roll on his leadership. I am not going to underestmate that.

Mordheimer: Ah! somebody who understands


dwi